Our guest today has worked in Big Law, a boutique firm, and now owns her own practice. She’s logged her billable hours and she’s figured out flat rates; she’s represented multinational Fortune 200 companies and scrappy startups.
Our guest today is Radiance Harris, the founder and managing attorney of Radiance IP Law. Today she’s going to share with us the lessons she’s learned throughout her incredibly diverse experience.
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Full Transcript
Katie Wolf:
Welcome to the Filevine Fireside. I'm Katie Wolf. Our guest today has worked in big law, in a boutique firm, and now owns her own practice. She's logged her billable hours and she's figured out flat rates. She's represented multinational Fortune 200 companies and scrappy startups. Our guest today is Radiance Harris, the founder and managing attorney of Radiance IP Law. And today she's going to share with us the lessons she's learned throughout her incredibly diverse experience. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today, radiance.
Radiance Harris:
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Katie Wolf:
So now you're the owner of your own firm, you're a prolific writer and speaker on issues of intellectual property law. But first I want to set the stage. I've read that you knew you were going to be a lawyer since you were 15 years old. I think when I was 15 I still wanted to be a cowgirl or something. What was it that made you recognize that this was your calling in life?
Radiance Harris:
Sure. So when I was in high school I didn't know any lawyers except for one who was a family friend, and that was the first lawyer that I ever or came across and he made it look and sound so cool. And so I was one of those kids that enjoyed reading. I was like the fourth grader where everyone was reading these short page books and I was reading these long novels. So I've always enjoyed reading and writing and the guy that I knew who was a lawyer, a family friend, he made it look cool, sound cool and he was making money and I'm like, "I want to be that when I grow up." So it was when I was 15 I just made the decision to be a lawyer and everything that I did after that was on track to accomplishing that goal.
Katie Wolf:
And you never doubted yourself, you were never like, "Let's try something easier instead."?
Radiance Harris:
Nope, not at all. And everything from the major I chose. So I was a English and religion major in college because... Well, I went to Swarthmore College, which is a liberal arts college. And so I chose a major that I knew would be very writing and reading heavy because I knew that I was going to law school. I'm one of those where it's when I'm committed to a goal, it's just I'm going to achieve that goal. So, that's what I was about, becoming a lawyer.
Katie Wolf:
In the field of intellectual property law, do you work with a lot of hard science people? Is it ever strange that you come from this liberal arts education or does that help amplify and diversify the field?
Radiance Harris:
Well, I would say that my liberal arts background has been very beneficial to what I do. So I do trademark law, which is basically all about words and symbols and designs. And so I work with a wide range of diverse clients, everything from clothing and apparel companies to consulting companies, even technology companies, all businesses have trademarks that they should be protecting if they haven't protected already. And so my experience is very diverse in that regard. And so I would say my love of English and writing has definitely been helpful in what I do on a day to day basis.
Katie Wolf:
Tell us a little bit about your journey to where you are now as the owner of your own firm.
Radiance Harris:
Sure. Do you want the long version or the short version?
Katie Wolf:
I have so many questions, so maybe let's do the short version.
Radiance Harris:
Let's do the short version. Okay. So in a nutshell, my goal out of law school was to work at a big law firm. And so I got that opportunity. And so fortunately for me, when I was a third year in law school, I had already knew that I was going to have this big time associate position at a large law firm in DC. So that was a blessing because when I graduated in 2009, it was at the heart of the recession, and so a lot of my peers graduated without employment and it took them a couple of years before they were able to do what they really wanted to do. So, that was a blessing. And so right after law school, I went at the big law firm, I was in the trademark copyright media group and had the opportunity to work with a lot of really impressive lawyers with a lot of experience that I was able to learn from.
Radiance Harris:
And then I worked with a lot of those big name clients. So the big corporate giants that you see in the marketplace, those were my clients. And so that was a good initial learning ground for me. But ultimately while there I just realized I wasn't about that churn and burn life, if you will, of the billable hour and working long and sacrificing family and health for that. So I decided to go to a smaller intellectual property law firm. It was a firm that was actually founded by former big law attorneys and they started this smaller firm. And so I was there for about a little over a year and doing the same kind of work that I did at the big law firm. I really thought I was going to get something different, but ultimately it ended up being the same thing, because they still had a big firm feel even though it was a smaller amount attorneys.
Radiance Harris:
And so I ended up leaving there, and I left there actually thinking that I was done with the law.
Katie Wolf:
Really?
Radiance Harris:
I honestly left thinking I was done with the law, yeah. I left there and I was not sure what I was going to do and took a few months off. But at the same time, I was still going out to networking events and meeting people and meet them and say, "Oh, I used to practice law." I would say, "Oh, I used to practice law. I used to be a trademark attorney," without having any idea where I was going next and went on a trip with my family to South Africa for a couple of weeks and just did things that I wasn't able to really do while I was working.
Radiance Harris:
And so during this whole few months, it was probably a three, four month period, I came to this revelation that I wasn't done with the law, I actually very much enjoyed what I did, which was trademark law, but I was tired of working for someone else. And so it was like I came to that epiphany moment and then a matter of two weeks I had launched my firm. I'd literally just got the business incorporated, got my liability insurance and sent out this huge email blast and say, "Hey folks, I'm open for business." And so when I did that I knew I wanted my firm to be different, I knew I wanted to do flat fees, I knew I wanted to help the smaller businesses. So, the emergent companies, if you will, those that are going to be aspiring or future Fortune 200 companies. And so that's what I've done over the last four years or so.
Katie Wolf:
That's so brave to have this high powered career and then take that leap into not knowing what's going to come next, but just giving yourself the time to work through it and figure it out and then take the leap to starting your own practice.
Radiance Harris:
Yes.
Katie Wolf:
So now that you have gone through this whole journey, what is the biggest difference between the work that you do now just on the day to day basis and the work that you used to be doing?
Radiance Harris:
So I still do the same type of work substantively. So the trademark counseling, trademark registrations, trademark search and clearance, trademark enforcement, I do some contracts, licensing, things of that nature, I still do that to this day, I just work differently. So at the big law firm you had to be at the office 10 to 11 hours a day in order to bill seven and a half, eight hours. And so with my own practice, I now work four days a week, Monday through Thursday are my working days, and I will work anywhere between six to eight hours per day, depending upon what I'm doing. And that's inclusive of actual plan work and that's going to lunch to hang out with a friend or a new or potential client, or what have you, that's what I consider work. So it's not necessarily me sitting at my desk 10 to 12 hours a day to get stuff done. So I definitely work differently now and have a lot more flexibility.
Katie Wolf:
Do you think you're able to do that because you are magical and you figured out how to make it work? Do you think anyone could do that or what's your take on that?
Radiance Harris:
Sure. I think anyone can do it. And what, I guess, you could say what I've learned, as I've been an entrepreneur, is that it's important to be known for something. So it's important to niche down, if you will. And so for the most part of my career, I've done trademark law and that's what I've been known for, that is what I do, that's what I love and that's what I'm known for. And so I knew that when I started my practice I really wanted to focus in on that instead of being a jack of all trades and doing a whole bunch of stuff. So I really focused on, honed on, marketed myself as a trademark attorney because that's what I do, that's what I love. And then the next piece, what I've done more recently, is really niching down on the types of clients that I serve.
Radiance Harris:
When I first started my practice, I was like, "Oh, I'll help all small businesses. It was just small businesses broad, but over the years I've realized that I've worked a lot, and in fact, some of my best clients were women entrepreneurs. And so now I tend to work with more established women-owned business. It doesn't mean don't work with men, but those seem to be the clients that I mostly serve. And so in terms of my ideal client and in terms of my marketing, that's who I speak to. And then lastly, I've also created a signature offer. So I have a signature flat rate, all inclusive trademark registration package that I offer to my clients. And so that's what I'm known for. It's very focused on value versus how much time it's going to take me. It's about how can I make this experience better for my clients. So when they call me or send me an email or have any questions, they don't have to be afraid of getting a surprise invoice.
Katie Wolf:
So I want to talk about the billable hour, because a lot of people complain about the billable hour, but then say, "Well, the only thing worse than billing your hours is not getting paid for your hours." Right?
Radiance Harris:
Sure.
Katie Wolf:
What are the logistics behind how you find a flat fee that works for you?
Radiance Harris:
So a flat fee, it's one of those trial and error things. For me, I've, at this point, handled thousands of trademark filings and matters so I know what the process entails and to a point that it's become a system, but I think the first part is to actually do the work that you want to do, time yourself and see how much time it takes you to do, and then that's a basis. How much time is this actually going to take me? And then include some wiggle room in there and then think about the value. So what is my value in the marketplace? I feel like if you're more of a specialist, quote, unquote, that there is a little bit more wiggle room to charge a higher rate than someone who's more of a jack of all trades.
Radiance Harris:
And then also consider where you are in terms of your practice. So I do trademark law, which is a federal practice, so I work with clients all over the United States. Maybe someone who's more local, maybe not. So I think there are a number of factors that would go into how do you determine a flat rate. And so my flat rate now is higher than when I started and so you'll learn that you might start at a certain point, you might realize oh, I might need to bump this up a little bit. So I think it's a matter of trial and error and determining what's a good flat rate for whatever it is that you're providing. Especially if it's something that's more routine and can be more predictable, I think it's worth doing because clients definitely value being charged based on value versus how much time.
Katie Wolf:
As an entrepreneur yourself, what are your top recommendations for other attorneys who might be in a similar situation and are trying to figure out their marketing strategy?
Radiance Harris:
I would say the number one thing is determine your niche, determine what it is that you do, what you are known for and determine who do you want to work with, who are your best clients and market to those people. The saying goes, "If you market to everyone, you're marketing to nobody." So it's really getting clear on your messaging. What problem are you solving for your clients? What makes you different? And who are you trying to serve? That's important. Two, definitely get on social media. If you don't have a social media presence then you're basically not really considered relevant. I think nowadays it's if someone Googles and they can't find you have a Facebook page or something, they're like, "Well, what kind of law firm is this?" So it's just having a social media presence. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to post daily, though I'm sure that's helpful, but doing that presence, and then...
Katie Wolf:
Wait, I want to interrupt you really quickly because you've got such a good social media game. I was looking at your Twitter and your Instagram and it's just so just vibrant and funny.
Radiance Harris:
Oh, thank you.
Katie Wolf:
And trademark law does not strike me as a funny thing when I first think of it. I look at a lot of attorney social media and it's usually just so boring. What's your advice for keeping it lively and colorful and fun?
Radiance Harris:
Sure. I think it's important to put your personality into what you do. Typically, lawyers have the reputation of being really stuffy and suit wearing and boring, and I have always come to the table with excitement, with my personality, with some color, with some light and so just because it's legal, doesn't mean it has to be boring. And so just bringing some excitement to it because people are afraid of lawyers, to be honest, or they think that they only need a lawyer once they get in trouble.
Radiance Harris:
And so with the type of work that I do, which is trademark law, often clients are reactive instead of proactive. And so my whole messaging is about being proactive instead of reactive. So getting your legal house in order before starting your business, or if you've already been in business and forgot to do this, do it now, don't wait. And so that is my messaging in the marketplace, if you well. And so I try to add some kind of excitement to it, though it's legal stuff after all, but I still try to add some personality to it, to not just make it so blah and intimidating, because people are intimidated by lawyers.
Katie Wolf:
Okay. So number one, really hone down on who your preferred clientele is. Number two, to have a good social media game. And then what's number three?
Radiance Harris:
Number three would be being clear on educating. I guess you could say the education piece. Educating, what it is, what it means and what problem do you solve for your clients. So for me, with trademarks, a lot of my perspective clients don't really understand what intellectual property is. I recently did market research for my ideal client and only 40% of them understand what intellectual property is and the importance of protecting it. So a big piece of it is the education. And so when they hear intellectual property, what does that mean? And when they hear trademarks, what does that mean? And what is protecting their trademark mean for their business?
Radiance Harris:
And so same thing with family law and things of that nature. Now, usually I guess you could say practice areas like family law or criminal law or things like that tend to be the kind of cases where someone will come to you when they are in need or in trouble, whereas other ones like trust and estates and trademark law are those that you should be more proactive with where you should do something before something bad happens. So education is really big in areas like those.
Katie Wolf:
So you have this body of knowledge as someone who is managing and marketing your own practice, you also have this huge body of knowledge as an IP attorney. Do you have any advice for other attorneys who might be in a similar situation with their own practices about how to protect their intellectual property and how to steer clear of violating someone else's?
Radiance Harris:
Sure. So everything such as starting your law firm and choosing the name that you want, most law firms, they choose a boring name like law offices of Radiance Harris or something like that, where there are other law firms like myself, I decided to go with Radiance IP Law because I wanted it to be different. And so if you're a law firm that's actually wanted to create a brand, you've chosen a name that's different than law offices of X, or maybe you've come up with a catchy slogan for your business, that's definitely something that you'd want to secure trademark protection for to ensure that you have nationwide exclusive rights to use that name in a legal space. And so I did that for Radiance IP Law when I opened up, I immediately filed a trademark application for it because I didn't want any funny business, I didn't want anybody using the name Radiance in the legal space, and now I have that ability, so now I have exclusive rights to use it.
Radiance Harris:
So, that's important. So if you have anything that's of really proprietary nature to you, that you'd be really pissed off if someone took, definitely want to secure a trademark for. The same with copyright, usually with copyright law, the way it works is whoever creates the content, owns the content. And so that being said, if you are using assistants or independent contractors of things of that nature, you want to make sure that there are contractual provisions in those contracts which makes it clear of work made for hire, who owns intellectual property, things of that nature so that when they leave, they're not like, "Oh, well I didn't sign nothing," so they [crosstalk 00:19:11]. That means they're taking all the content they've posted on your social media and all of the stuff that they've created for your firm. So you want to always make sure that there's intellectual property provisions in the contract for any support staff that you're working with and things of that nature.
Katie Wolf:
And if they have questions, how can they contact you?
Radiance Harris:
Sure. With questions, you can contact me via email is usually best. And that's R Harris, R, H-A-R-R-I-S, at radianceiplaw.com. And that's Radiance like the word, iplaw.com.
Katie Wolf:
So reach out to Radiance if you're worried about what you're doing.
Radiance Harris:
Or if you have any clients who need assistance, I can take that as well.
Katie Wolf:
Excellent. So would you recommend your practice area to any young law student or would you just recommend it to someone who had a particular subset of qualities?
Radiance Harris:
Yes. I love trademark law because I'm an introvert and so I love this area of law, particularly the prosecution side of trademark, rather than the litigation, because it allows me to not have to go in the courtroom. And so I knew back in law school, I didn't want to be in anybody's courtroom and so definitely that if you want something more transactional, if you enjoy words and symbols and analysis related to those types of things, this is a great practice for you.
Radiance Harris:
It's also good if you're looking for more flexibility and a better quality of life and that you don't, again, have the court issue. And most of the deadlines that come up with trademark practice are pretty predictable. The trademark registration process in particular is very predictable. It's once you file the application, there's a three to four month waiting period, and then you might get an office action. So it's very routine how the process works. And so if you're looking for a practice that has predictability and things of that nature then definitely go into this, but don't go into this thinking or just think it's an easy thing to add, because there are a lot of nuances to trademark law, there's more than meets the eye. So there is some time that'll take you to actually learn up on the process, but it's doable.
Katie Wolf:
What are the big new issues that you're facing in trademark law? I know you've written about hashtags. Can you tell us more about that?
Radiance Harris:
Sure. So hashtags are increasingly more popular thing on social media and then even more now people are protecting them as trademarks. And so basically the nuance to that is that, a hashtag consumption has a trademark so long as it's being used in connection with a product or service outside of the social media platform. So just by virtue of just using a hashtag on the internet, you can't claim trademark rights based on that. But when you're actually using it in connection with a product or service, that would render actual trademark protection if you pursue it.
Katie Wolf:
I've seen businesses now that are called hashtag something and clearly that is intellectual property, but I don't typically think of a hashtag as something that any person could claim a right to. So, that's super interesting.
Radiance Harris:
Absolutely. Yes, it is
Katie Wolf:
You mentioned that you're an introvert, and I just loved one of your recent tweets, you confessed to be pretending to talk on your phone in order to avoid small chat, which is just very relatable, but do you feel like you perform extroversion strategically? Are you able to just convince people that you're an extrovert?
Radiance Harris:
It's funny you say that. I get that all the time. A lot of people are like, "Stop playing, you're not an introvert. Stop playing." But I guess you could say I'm one of those extroverted introverts where it's I know when to turn it on or turn it off. I think what it's become down to recently is that I've become more strategic about the places that I go and the type of networking that I do. And so when, earlier in my career, I was forced to go to those happy hour, late in the evening, standing room type of events and I always felt really awkward at those.
Radiance Harris:
Where now, more recently, I go to lunch types of events or dinner, more of a sit down over a meal and let's have a conversation kind of events have been my type of networking and it becomes more natural to me because I'm able to have a more intimate conversation with people versus how many business cards can I get in this room, bam, bam, bam type of networking, that is not my thing. So I think it's just a matter of me really honing into what my strengths are and then focusing on that.
Katie Wolf:
Because it's not that introverts are bad at talking to people, it's that they want to have a meaningful a conversation with a person instead of just being a social butterfly.
Radiance Harris:
Exactly.
Katie Wolf:
Play to your strengths. So demographically, I just have to ask you this, law is the realm of a lot of old white men, and you are a young black woman who's fighting a lot of success in this field, has that been frustrating or has it been an exciting thing to change people's expectations or is it not even an issue for you?
Radiance Harris:
I would say now that I'm on my own, I have my own practice and I have my own say of how I want to work, who I want to work with, how I look when I'm working with them, it's not so much an issue, it's something that's exciting and celebrated because I can do things and be myself. I have tattoos. I don't have to be afraid to cover them. I have a nose ring. I don't have to cover that. If decided I wanted to cover my hair pink, I'd feel confident to do that. It was only a problem when I was trying to fit into the big law firm model and it just didn't feel authentic to me where I felt like I had to fit into a certain box in order to excel there.
Radiance Harris:
And so I would say I think that's a struggle for a lot of women of color, particularly black women who are trying to make it into the traditional law firm model, but there's something just so empowering and inspiring and freeing when you start your own practice and you have say over it and you're able to really step into your authentic self.
Katie Wolf:
What do you feel like is next for you in your life?
Radiance Harris:
What's next for me is I want to scale my law firm to a seven figure law firm. I got into six figures fairly quickly. My second year in business I was six figures and so now I'm working my way to a seven figure business. And to be honest, a lot of my focus is going into that because I know that when I get to that level that a lot of things will open up. And so that is the next goal of mine. So as I told you before, once I'm focused on a goal, it's just that everything I do, decisions I make is like is this a million dollar decision? Would a million dollar law firm do this? So, that's a big focus of mine right now.
Katie Wolf:
Well, all the best luck to you, Radiance, in that. And I have no doubt that you'll achieve it based on your past performance.
Radiance Harris:
Thank you.
Katie Wolf:
Thank you so much for taking this time to talk with us. It's been really fun to talk with you.
Radiance Harris:
My pleasure. Great.
Katie Wolf:
We've been talking to Radiance Harris, the founder and managing attorney of Radiance IP Law. This is the Filevine Fireside, and I'm your host, Katie Wolf. Join us next time.